Estonia, our recently welcomed EU partner, is in the midst of a potentially violent controversy between the government and its ethnic Russian minority (about 26% of the population).
The government has removed a bronze statue of a Soviet soldier in the capital, Tallinn, and plans to excavate the buried fallen entombed below. The move has led to an ongoing demonstration by angered Russo-Estonians in the city. Hundreds have been arrested, and Moscow is considering severing all diplomatic relations with the Estonian government.
It should be remembered at this point that many Estonians were complicit with the fascist Nazi war machine of the early forties. Indeed, the Waffen-SS drew heavily from the supportive Estonian population. Over the past few years, Nazi-sympathisers have worked to have The Monument of Lihula, a tribute to the Estonians who died fighting for the Germans, erected in the country.
Estonia has also dismissed evidence provided by the Simon Wiesenthal Centre, the Jewish human rights organisation that exposes Nazi war criminals, on numerous Estonian citizens.
This is not a pro-Soviet post. Many Estonians saw the Nazis as liberators (they had been occupied by the Red Army for almost a year when the Germans arrived), and the collapse of Germany in 1945 ushered in 50-years of Soviet rule. No tears are spilt remembering the USSR on this blog, but it does appear that Estonia is somewhat proud of its Nazi collaborating past, and is prepared to fracture relations with its ethnic-Russian citizens, as it erases their contribution to WW2.
25 million Soviets died during the war years, a contribution that is often forgotten in the West. Had the USSR capitulated in front of the Nazi war-machine, it’s hard to imagine that the Allied attack would have succeeded on the Western Front.
tygerland archive 
Estonia is and has never been fascist. It is a stupid lie, being propagated by Russia. The Lihula monument, which had been erected by extremists, who exist in every country, was taken down by the Estonian government. Estonian history in the 1940s was painful as both Nazi and Soviet occupiers drafted people to their armies, forcing brothers fighting brothers. Read more: http://www.historycommission.ee/The Bronze Soldier has for last three years been a scene of clashes (esp around 9 May) between radicals on both sides. In order to keep public order, it had to be moved to a cemetary.
Estonia is and has never been fascist. It is a stupid lie, being propagated by Russia. The Lihula monument, which had been erected by extremists, who exist in every country, was taken down by the Estonian government. Estonian history in the 1940s was painful as both Nazi and Soviet occupiers drafted people to their armies, forcing brothers fighting brothers. Read more: http://www.historycommission.ee/The Bronze Soldier has for last three years been a scene of clashes (esp around 9 May) between radicals on both sides. In order to keep public order, it had to be moved to a cemetary.
Kari, thanks for commenting…The Lihula monument remains in a private museum within Estonia. I wonder if the German government would allow such a controversial arm of the Nazi Movement to be on celebrated in its soil?Would you argue that the Estonian government does enough to quell nationalism within Estonia?
Kari, thanks for commenting…The Lihula monument remains in a private museum within Estonia. I wonder if the German government would allow such a controversial arm of the Nazi Movement to be on celebrated in its soil?Would you argue that the Estonian government does enough to quell nationalism within Estonia?
This statement is absurd insult: “but it does appear that Estonia is somewhat proud of its Nazi collaborating past”re: the lihula monument: “The Lihula monument remains in a private museum within Estonia.”exactly. a PRIVATE museum. what business does the government have dictating what can and cannot be displayed in PRIVATELY OWNED museums?
This statement is absurd insult: “but it does appear that Estonia is somewhat proud of its Nazi collaborating past”re: the lihula monument: “The Lihula monument remains in a private museum within Estonia.”exactly. a PRIVATE museum. what business does the government have dictating what can and cannot be displayed in PRIVATELY OWNED museums?
This statement, insult or not, is an observation based on the actions of certain Estonians. If this pisses you off, then that is the price of free speech I’m afraid.A private museum IN ESTONIA. I repeat. Would the German government allow such a controversial arm of the Nazi Movement to be on celebrated in its soil?The government, in my opinion, has no right to dictate what people have in their homes, but what they put on public display may be another matter. The central point is that certain Estonians are indeed portraying their nation as somewhat proud to of their Nazi past. So it’s no point crowing here, I personally think your time would be better spent helping others repair the very damaged Estii-Russian relations – both within Estonia and with your very large and very pissed off neighbours…
This statement, insult or not, is an observation based on the actions of certain Estonians. If this pisses you off, then that is the price of free speech I’m afraid.A private museum IN ESTONIA. I repeat. Would the German government allow such a controversial arm of the Nazi Movement to be on celebrated in its soil?The government, in my opinion, has no right to dictate what people have in their homes, but what they put on public display may be another matter. The central point is that certain Estonians are indeed portraying their nation as somewhat proud to of their Nazi past. So it’s no point crowing here, I personally think your time would be better spent helping others repair the very damaged Estii-Russian relations – both within Estonia and with your very large and very pissed off neighbours…
I have no problem with free speech – you are welcome to make a fool of yourself by extrapolating the actions of certain Estonians on the whole nation.The German government would not allow it, because they have outlawed Nazi symbolism. In Estonia, however, we have free speech, which you claim to support, and which includes the right to offend. The fact that most Estonians find the Lihula monument to be deeply offending does not mean the government can remove it from the property of a privately owned entity.The central point that both Kari and I are trying to get across to you is that there are extremists in every single country. Don’t presume that their views represent that of Estonia as a whole.
I have no problem with free speech – you are welcome to make a fool of yourself by extrapolating the actions of certain Estonians on the whole nation.The German government would not allow it, because they have outlawed Nazi symbolism. In Estonia, however, we have free speech, which you claim to support, and which includes the right to offend. The fact that most Estonians find the Lihula monument to be deeply offending does not mean the government can remove it from the property of a privately owned entity.The central point that both Kari and I are trying to get across to you is that there are extremists in every single country. Don’t presume that their views represent that of Estonia as a whole.
Whoooah there, now you have started something.Now, if we’re going to discuss extremism. Tell me, why does the Estonian government discriminate against Russian ethnics?Why, when Estonia declared independence, did ethnic-Russians have to complete exams to gain citizenship for the country in which many of them were born?Are Russian nationals, who have lived in Estonia for several decades, allowed to gain dual citizenship, which would empower them with demoratic rights and the freedom to visit Russia without a visa?Would you argue that the Estonian government does not discriminate against Ethnic Russians?Yes, extremism may be the result of radical miniorities, agreed (and you must accept the premise of deliberatly combustable commentary, but the Estonians have not extended basic human rights (such as ligitimate statehood) to many of its citzens.(apology for any spelling errors, writing from BlackBerry)
Whoooah there, now you have started something.Now, if we’re going to discuss extremism. Tell me, why does the Estonian government discriminate against Russian ethnics?Why, when Estonia declared independence, did ethnic-Russians have to complete exams to gain citizenship for the country in which many of them were born?Are Russian nationals, who have lived in Estonia for several decades, allowed to gain dual citizenship, which would empower them with demoratic rights and the freedom to visit Russia without a visa?Would you argue that the Estonian government does not discriminate against Ethnic Russians?Yes, extremism may be the result of radical miniorities, agreed (and you must accept the premise of deliberatly combustable commentary, but the Estonians have not extended basic human rights (such as ligitimate statehood) to many of its citzens.(apology for any spelling errors, writing from BlackBerry)
It’s a tough one, this, Tyger; as Kari and Daniel have both mentioned, and as I learned first-hand in Riga, many in the Baltic states opted for the Nazis in desperation as a bulwark against the Soviets, whom they did percieve as occupiers. Does that mean that they all whole-heartedly embraced Nazi ideology? Some probably did, others almost certainly did not. By the same token, those who fought in the Red Army almost certainly would not all have wholeheartedly bought into Communist ideology, but would have hated what the Nazis stood for more; I doubt that antipathy for invaders would have been less of a motivating factor for Soviet citizens as it was for many Estonians. Yes, it should be made more clear more often to Westerners just how great a sacrifice was made by Soviet citizens during WWII. You are right to say that a Western Front would scarcely have succeeded otherwise. But, equally, some 20 million Soviets died at the hands of their own state… Does that, therefore, mean that those who died in the Soviet war effort should not be remembered? Clearly, it does not, so, then, why should those who died fighting for a similarly vile regime not be likewise remembered? The trouble is, of course, when extremist groups pick up on such issues as a blind for furthering their own agendas. I agree that treatment of ethnic Russians in the Baltic states has left much to be desired. I enjoyed Latvia very much, but my – part-Russian – partner refuses to go with me on a return visit. Then again I can understand it, if not condone it, as a reaction to the privileged position of ethnic Russians in the Baltics during the Soviet period. The questions you raise in comment 6 need to be seen in this context, although I hasten to add I am not trying to argue that two wrongs make a right.
It’s a tough one, this, Tyger; as Kari and Daniel have both mentioned, and as I learned first-hand in Riga, many in the Baltic states opted for the Nazis in desperation as a bulwark against the Soviets, whom they did percieve as occupiers. Does that mean that they all whole-heartedly embraced Nazi ideology? Some probably did, others almost certainly did not. By the same token, those who fought in the Red Army almost certainly would not all have wholeheartedly bought into Communist ideology, but would have hated what the Nazis stood for more; I doubt that antipathy for invaders would have been less of a motivating factor for Soviet citizens as it was for many Estonians. Yes, it should be made more clear more often to Westerners just how great a sacrifice was made by Soviet citizens during WWII. You are right to say that a Western Front would scarcely have succeeded otherwise. But, equally, some 20 million Soviets died at the hands of their own state… Does that, therefore, mean that those who died in the Soviet war effort should not be remembered? Clearly, it does not, so, then, why should those who died fighting for a similarly vile regime not be likewise remembered? The trouble is, of course, when extremist groups pick up on such issues as a blind for furthering their own agendas. I agree that treatment of ethnic Russians in the Baltic states has left much to be desired. I enjoyed Latvia very much, but my – part-Russian – partner refuses to go with me on a return visit. Then again I can understand it, if not condone it, as a reaction to the privileged position of ethnic Russians in the Baltics during the Soviet period. The questions you raise in comment 6 need to be seen in this context, although I hasten to add I am not trying to argue that two wrongs make a right.
So now we’ve moved on from Estonia being proud of collaborating with Nazis?OK then.My personal view is that requiring Estonian citizens to speak the Estonian language is perfectly reasonable. And this requirement applied for everyone who did not have citizenship before the Soviet Occupation, not just russians.Now if you think that’s an extremist view or discriminatory then that’s fine. That’s a matter of opinion and ours happen to disagree.What’s not a matter of opinion is your original statement about collaborating with Nazi Germany. Its patently false and I hope you realize that.
So now we’ve moved on from Estonia being proud of collaborating with Nazis?OK then.My personal view is that requiring Estonian citizens to speak the Estonian language is perfectly reasonable. And this requirement applied for everyone who did not have citizenship before the Soviet Occupation, not just russians.Now if you think that’s an extremist view or discriminatory then that’s fine. That’s a matter of opinion and ours happen to disagree.What’s not a matter of opinion is your original statement about collaborating with Nazi Germany. Its patently false and I hope you realize that.
Daniel,No. I think that the arguement that Estnonians appear to be somewhat proud of their Nazi past remains valid. As I said, it’s an observation,nothing more. Do not misrepresent me.Now if you think that’s an extremist view or discriminatory then that’s fine. That’s a matter of opinion and ours happen to disagree.No, not an opinion. We’re talking basic human rights. The Russians, or whatever, had resided for decades. A sense of statehood is a human right, like it or not.Estonia did collaborate with Germany in the forties. For whatever reason – call it ignorance or a hatred of Moscow, I don’t care. Fact. So not patently false at all.
Daniel,No. I think that the arguement that Estnonians appear to be somewhat proud of their Nazi past remains valid. As I said, it’s an observation,nothing more. Do not misrepresent me.Now if you think that’s an extremist view or discriminatory then that’s fine. That’s a matter of opinion and ours happen to disagree.No, not an opinion. We’re talking basic human rights. The Russians, or whatever, had resided for decades. A sense of statehood is a human right, like it or not.Estonia did collaborate with Germany in the forties. For whatever reason – call it ignorance or a hatred of Moscow, I don’t care. Fact. So not patently false at all.
I totaly agree with tyger.(my english is not perfect,so please forgive me for grammar mistakes)It is easy to talk about minorities and their rights in this country,especialy if you are not the one.I am .and i know what it is to be one.I was born here and it is my country as any other citizens.The law was made primerely in favor for ethnik-estonians,minorities dobt have anough vouts to change anithing.This law even covers digging in the graves of people.It is inhumane and disgraisful.It is offens to any human been.And you telling about freedom…I was on the streets esterday.And i witnessed with my own eyes how brutal people been bitten by police.Inisen bystanders,who was not doing anything,no arms,no rocks no threat to police being hit by several policeman with sticks,then on the ground by feet and sticks together.And it was very far from single case.Practicaly all the time.No other civil coutri woul allow this to be happening to it’s citizens.just because people are on the streets and not agreeng with goverment,trying to express what they are not happy about,because there is no other way for us left to be heard and anderstood by goverment it does not give the right to use exessive forse of police.Decision to dismantle and digg the grave of solders was provokative itself ,and reaction of people was predicteble.For example if somebody pushing you or your close ones ,will you stand arroun and be nice…???What do you expect???And i repeat people become agressive after seeng what police was doing to them.Wher is freedom ? How diferent it is from nazi?If 26% of population of this country trying and strugeling to defend their belives.Wondering how would you react if somebody,for instance, decides to start breaking the ground at your relatives or close ones grave?It is terrible and wrong.Goverment knows it and that is why using exessive forse.A am ageinst it as many of people in this country.I will be there today in honor of memories of thouse who died defending this country from NAZI
I totaly agree with tyger.(my english is not perfect,so please forgive me for grammar mistakes)It is easy to talk about minorities and their rights in this country,especialy if you are not the one.I am .and i know what it is to be one.I was born here and it is my country as any other citizens.The law was made primerely in favor for ethnik-estonians,minorities dobt have anough vouts to change anithing.This law even covers digging in the graves of people.It is inhumane and disgraisful.It is offens to any human been.And you telling about freedom…I was on the streets esterday.And i witnessed with my own eyes how brutal people been bitten by police.Inisen bystanders,who was not doing anything,no arms,no rocks no threat to police being hit by several policeman with sticks,then on the ground by feet and sticks together.And it was very far from single case.Practicaly all the time.No other civil coutri woul allow this to be happening to it’s citizens.just because people are on the streets and not agreeng with goverment,trying to express what they are not happy about,because there is no other way for us left to be heard and anderstood by goverment it does not give the right to use exessive forse of police.Decision to dismantle and digg the grave of solders was provokative itself ,and reaction of people was predicteble.For example if somebody pushing you or your close ones ,will you stand arroun and be nice…???What do you expect???And i repeat people become agressive after seeng what police was doing to them.Wher is freedom ? How diferent it is from nazi?If 26% of population of this country trying and strugeling to defend their belives.Wondering how would you react if somebody,for instance, decides to start breaking the ground at your relatives or close ones grave?It is terrible and wrong.Goverment knows it and that is why using exessive forse.A am ageinst it as many of people in this country.I will be there today in honor of memories of thouse who died defending this country from NAZI
Hey Sergei, Thanks for dropping by and commenting.You too Ian. Mrs. tyger is also from the Baltic, Estonian actually. Matter of factly, we’re having dinner with some Lithuanian friends as we speak!It’s a tricky subject no doubt. Something I’ll revisit later this week.
Hey Sergei, Thanks for dropping by and commenting.You too Ian. Mrs. tyger is also from the Baltic, Estonian actually. Matter of factly, we’re having dinner with some Lithuanian friends as we speak!It’s a tricky subject no doubt. Something I’ll revisit later this week.
Any time my friend
Any time my friend
There is one thing that troubles me about the Russian response to the removal of the Tallinn war memorial – the authorities in Russia have done pretty much the same thing recently themselves – bodies buried at a memorial in Khimki disinterred for reburial (an apparently mislaid), the demolition of a memorial in Stavropol to Cossacks who served on the soviet side in WWII.
There is one thing that troubles me about the Russian response to the removal of the Tallinn war memorial – the authorities in Russia have done pretty much the same thing recently themselves – bodies buried at a memorial in Khimki disinterred for reburial (an apparently mislaid), the demolition of a memorial in Stavropol to Cossacks who served on the soviet side in WWII.
Jams, to clarify, was that monument in Stavropol to Cossacks who fought for the Soviets against the Nazis, or vice versa? If the former, then it would be a fascinating development if the Russian authorities sanctioned the demolition: in many ways, the Cossack revival appears to have been tacitly approved, in that by tapping into Cossack myths of military prowess it helps boost Putin’s projection of Russia as a Great Power. A Cossack unit was recently formed in the Presidential Guard, in a deliberate echo of the Tsar’s Lifeguard Regiment, which was formed from Kuban and Terek Cossacks.I’m currently doing research into the Kuban Cossacks (when I’m not leaving verbose comments on blogs, that is); if I were to ask you for a link, would you interpret that as a request for assistance rather than an expression of doubt in your assertion? It would certainly be meant as the former…
Jams, to clarify, was that monument in Stavropol to Cossacks who fought for the Soviets against the Nazis, or vice versa? If the former, then it would be a fascinating development if the Russian authorities sanctioned the demolition: in many ways, the Cossack revival appears to have been tacitly approved, in that by tapping into Cossack myths of military prowess it helps boost Putin’s projection of Russia as a Great Power. A Cossack unit was recently formed in the Presidential Guard, in a deliberate echo of the Tsar’s Lifeguard Regiment, which was formed from Kuban and Terek Cossacks.I’m currently doing research into the Kuban Cossacks (when I’m not leaving verbose comments on blogs, that is); if I were to ask you for a link, would you interpret that as a request for assistance rather than an expression of doubt in your assertion? It would certainly be meant as the former…
New updates from Tallinn…Today police was not allowing people to stay in groups more than two and at one spot no more than 3 minets…otherwise to be handcufed and taken away…How is that for a freedom ? And if somebody just try to ask them why and where does it stated,is it marshal law …? for shure ticket to be packed in to police van.I have seen it big number of times today,while just walking on the streets and have been offerd that posability,just because i asked why i cannot stand where i want to and how long ,time wise.Democracy,freedom of speach….where is it all???
New updates from Tallinn…Today police was not allowing people to stay in groups more than two and at one spot no more than 3 minets…otherwise to be handcufed and taken away…How is that for a freedom ? And if somebody just try to ask them why and where does it stated,is it marshal law …? for shure ticket to be packed in to police van.I have seen it big number of times today,while just walking on the streets and have been offerd that posability,just because i asked why i cannot stand where i want to and how long ,time wise.Democracy,freedom of speach….where is it all???
The life of a country is full of history, in most cases biased history, but monuments serve to remind people how that life was built along the years, and in my opinion all those monuments should be kept intact. To use them to raise hatred is not in my view a proper way to conduct the life of the citizenry.I wonder whether Estonians, generally speaking, saw that monument as something that deeply hurt their feelings, or the decision by the government to pull it down was meant to serve a hidden political purpose.Because my experience tells me that in politics nothing is quite true or quite false and on more occasions than it has been convenient we have been able to see proofs of this.
The life of a country is full of history, in most cases biased history, but monuments serve to remind people how that life was built along the years, and in my opinion all those monuments should be kept intact. To use them to raise hatred is not in my view a proper way to conduct the life of the citizenry.I wonder whether Estonians, generally speaking, saw that monument as something that deeply hurt their feelings, or the decision by the government to pull it down was meant to serve a hidden political purpose.Because my experience tells me that in politics nothing is quite true or quite false and on more occasions than it has been convenient we have been able to see proofs of this.
Sergei, you forgot to mention in your new updates that almost the whole city has been trashed, almost every shop window has been broken and some people have broken into shops and stolen everything they can. A lot of entrepreneurs who probably have nothing to with this riot have lost all they have and the government has to pay for the damages. So the police is hardly to be blamed for trying to keep order? Or did they just ruin your regular Sunday walk downtown?
Sergei, you forgot to mention in your new updates that almost the whole city has been trashed, almost every shop window has been broken and some people have broken into shops and stolen everything they can. A lot of entrepreneurs who probably have nothing to with this riot have lost all they have and the government has to pay for the damages. So the police is hardly to be blamed for trying to keep order? Or did they just ruin your regular Sunday walk downtown?
For a view from an Estonian, please see this –http://www.jaanuskase.com/en/2007/04/what_i_think_of_the_riots_in_e.html
For a view from an Estonian, please see this –http://www.jaanuskase.com/en/2007/04/what_i_think_of_the_riots_in_e.html
Things have indeed gone postal in Tallinn. But it will be interesting to see how the looting is framed. Remember how the US media treated the black of New Orleans?The police were otherwise engaged putting down the protests, and as Hobbes taught us, a lack of control leads to chaos. I very much doubt it was only the Russians looting. I’d be keen to see evidence that supports this.Further to the comments by Estonians above. I’m not ignorant of politics in Estonia, or of Tallinn and Estonia itself. I spend a great deal of the year in Tallinn and have a great many friends in the city.Next time I’m there, maybe I’ll have a coffee or a beer with some of those commenters above and we can discuss both sides of the dispute, and how Estonia continues to deal with its rich ethnic mix. If you’re up for it – drop me an email (see the ‘Contact’ section on the sidebar).
Things have indeed gone postal in Tallinn. But it will be interesting to see how the looting is framed. Remember how the US media treated the black of New Orleans?The police were otherwise engaged putting down the protests, and as Hobbes taught us, a lack of control leads to chaos. I very much doubt it was only the Russians looting. I’d be keen to see evidence that supports this.Further to the comments by Estonians above. I’m not ignorant of politics in Estonia, or of Tallinn and Estonia itself. I spend a great deal of the year in Tallinn and have a great many friends in the city.Next time I’m there, maybe I’ll have a coffee or a beer with some of those commenters above and we can discuss both sides of the dispute, and how Estonia continues to deal with its rich ethnic mix. If you’re up for it – drop me an email (see the ‘Contact’ section on the sidebar).
I’m not from Estonia 🙂 I’m just pissed off because a beautiful old town is ruined for one statue (yes, I know it’s political and maybe I’m a naive peace-not-war-hippie, but still…)
I’m not from Estonia 🙂 I’m just pissed off because a beautiful old town is ruined for one statue (yes, I know it’s political and maybe I’m a naive peace-not-war-hippie, but still…)
Just someone…Let’s not get carried away. This thing will blow itself out, and Tallinn’s shop windows will be replaced.Demonstration and protest is healthy for a Democracy.
Just someone…Let’s not get carried away. This thing will blow itself out, and Tallinn’s shop windows will be replaced.Demonstration and protest is healthy for a Democracy.
I know, and don’t want to take a side, I just have too many friends from Estonia whose memories of soviet times are far from democracy. Nowadays it seems unbelievable that you for example weren’t allowed to bring anything with you (clothes etc…) from abroad!
I know, and don’t want to take a side, I just have too many friends from Estonia whose memories of soviet times are far from democracy. Nowadays it seems unbelievable that you for example weren’t allowed to bring anything with you (clothes etc…) from abroad!